70 responses so far ↓

• 1 Michael // Apr 4, 2008 at 9:49 am

  Okay, now that’s a funny story! Harley Flannigan can’t even remember being a devotee, I love that line. Was he ever a devotee? Or was he just in it for the cool tattoos?

• 2 Rati // Apr 4, 2008 at 9:51 am

  Hahahhahaha!!!!!!!! Thanks for the MUCH needed laugh.
  Since I don’t qualify to be interviewed for the series, I’ll tell YOU about the first time I saw a memories tape. (That’s right, pre- DVD era.) The TV was set up in the “devotee room” and we were all so excited to see this brand new video. I particularly remember Atmatattva Prabhu’s memories. Hearing the devotees memories really helped to give more appreciation for Prabhupada. Jaya Prabhupada!!!

  PS. I’m sure you remember the room, it was right next to the lobby, with a couch, chairs, etc. Of course, it’s since been turned into yet another office, under lock and key.

• 3 Pandu das // Apr 4, 2008 at 11:37 am

  I remember mine. It was around 1997, maybe `98, and I was in Brooklyn passing through on my way home from my uncle’s wedding. I had never been to the Brooklyn temple before, but I had recently met Puru prabhu at New Vrindavana, where he gave us a nice tour on our first visit to the Dhama, and here he was in Brooklyn. He invited my wife, baby, and me upstairs for prasadam, where he had a video playing on a tiny TV. That was the first time seeing Srila Prabhupada moving, with a couple bonus Puru Prabhu memories. I don’t expect to forget either any time soon.

• 4 Kdd // Apr 4, 2008 at 12:06 pm

  I remember my memories of the memories very distinctly still and I think I qualify to be interviewed actually because I joined in the early 90’s and saw the memories prior to and during my early involvement in the movement. So before I share the nectar which involves a three-day straight viewing during a Christmas vacation and thinking Madhudvisa reminded me of a leprechan, I will wait to see if ITV contacts me.

• 5 Vidyapati das // Apr 4, 2008 at 5:56 pm

  This has got to be the best Hing update yet! Well done!

• 6 Ekendra Dasa // Apr 4, 2008 at 10:27 pm

  I actually think it that a ‘memories of memories’ video would be nice. Maybe not exactly that format – but i think there is something fascinating about hearing Srila Prabhupada stories from devotees who never met him or were born after he departed. Its a proof of Srila Prabhupada’s legacy and impact that he affects people so intimately even when physically absent.

• 7 JayaBlissNectar // Apr 8, 2008 at 7:24 pm

  Rather than take the “memories” option I went to India and associated with Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, BP Puri Maharaja, BV Puri Maharaja and others. It far more fulfilling than watching videos or listening to others’ second-hand experiences.

• 8 Priyavaisnava devi dasi // Apr 23, 2008 at 11:13 am

  Haribol, Eric. I’m so glad someone has finally taken me seriously with the memories of the memories. You see, my memory is not so great anymore because of all the sankirtan I’ve done in my life…I’ve spoken to so many people I can’t begin to remember their names! But the memories of those devotees’ memories will stick in my memory forever!
  Your servant,
  Priyavaisnava devi dasi
  (Hey, Eric…now I read your Hing at work and it makes the day go MUCH faster…thanks so much…..Lilasuka dasi)

• 9 Rati // Apr 25, 2008 at 3:36 pm

  Jaya Lilasuka!!!!! When I first started reading this I thought, “Wow! I wonder who had the great idea to write from Priyadarshani?” Then I saw it was Lilasuka. Of course! I should have known.

• 10 Ananga // May 13, 2008 at 3:18 pm

  Hey, do I qualify to be interviewed? I started reading Prabhupada’s books in the mid 80’s, though I didn’t join until the mid-90’s. Do I make the cut?

  But seriously, I remember watching my first memories of Prabhupada VHS in 1996. I used to spend so many hours in Prabhupada’s Library in the Brooklyn temple, watching his videos and chanting. Sweet times! Oh, to be a bhaktin again.

• 11 Rati // May 14, 2008 at 11:47 am

  Well, I re-read the article, because obviously I didn’t remember details from the first time I read it. I think you qualify. Can’t wait to hear your memories….

• 12 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 6, 2008 at 11:30 pm

  I was invited to participate in the Memories Series, because I did meet Srila Prabhupada and personally received initiation from him. I declined though because it was a deeply painful experience – I really got the sauce.

• 13 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 12:43 am

  I do have some really wonderful memories, besides my painful and disappointing one.

  Srila Prabhupada was at the airport, leaving us after a long stay. I just happened to be standing just a few feet away from him. Suddenly he turned, smiled, and waved goodbye to all the devotees who stood behind me. It felt like a glowing, radiating sun burning right through me, although the feeling was actually cooling.

• 14 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 11:22 am

  It’s unfortunate that the many children whose lives were destroyed by his morally criminal gurukula directive probably don’t have such “wonderful memories.”

• 15 Nandini // Aug 7, 2008 at 12:06 pm

  I think the memories of some of these gurukulis are so horrid indeed that it is imperative that Iskcon balances the presentation by putting out an official series on them (as its been done with the good memories on Prabhupada). That is, if the victims would be willing to talk about it. Its not about dwelling on negatives – its about acknowledging events in Iskcon’s history that have played a great part in the shaping of the institution in the past, continues to play presently, and it will play in the future – if is to be a future at all. Where is the question of positive when such crimes are downplayed and even ignored by followers of Prabhupada? Prabhupada made mistakes, certainly unintentionally, and Iskcon should acknowledge it.

• 16 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 12:13 pm

  Click on, “Our Accounts of Child Abuse in the Hare Krsnas.”

  http://web.archive.org/web/19981205005548/http:/ccrgroup.com/voice/

• 17 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 12:45 pm

  This is a really good point. Many people have many doubts about the process of Krishna Consciousness. Srila Prabhupada layed down the ground work ideas for how to make the Gurukula. It sounded really good on paper. The reality is that he was single handedly running a huge organization, and wasn’t personally present with us at all times or most of the time.

  In the seven years that I knew of him, I only saw him for 10 minutes for my Brahmin initiation, and in a few class lectures. That was all the personal instruction I received as a disciple.

  The rest of the time I was following the direction of disciples. Some of those people had their own motives and agenda that were often different from Srila Prabhupada’s original instructions or were an interpretation of what they heard.

  I don’t think it is responsible to lay the complete blame on failure with Srila Prabhupada. At the same time we have to get to the bottom of what happened and why it happened, and be allowed to do that openly without suppression or fear of reprisal.

• 18 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 12:54 pm

  I have always received personal instruction from Srila Prabhupada through his books and lectures. Each of us is responsible for his/her ownself on their spiritual path.

  The Vedic injuction is a guru should not accept too many disciples – maybe 1-2 tops. If Srila Prabhupada had never come here, and instead just followed the Vedic injunction, then all these problems might never have happened and we all would be better off.

  It would probably have just been better to never even try the Gurukula, and instead just let children get their education through public schools since the public schools system is so much better than Gurukula.

• 19 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 1:11 pm

  Boy-R-D, I don’t think Prabhupada’s “gurukula” idea of sending tiny 4-and-5-year-old children (and some even as young as 3) away from their families EVER “sounded really good on paper.” It was a horrific idea and a horrific and abusive directive.

• 20 Nandini // Aug 7, 2008 at 1:18 pm

  I disagree: public school is not better than gurukula in principle. But Iskcon’s gurukulas failed, and there is a reason they failed. It is is simply ludicrous to deny this failure, what to speak of denying that crimes occurred. Srila Prabhupada is obviously not the sole responsible but he is responsible to some degree. Getting to the bottom of what happened or perish trying is the responsibility of everyone remotely or closely associated with this movement.

  AR,

  An official acknowledge of the situation BY ISKCON is what I was talking about. So far Iskcon officials have not treated this matter anywhere near as responsibly as they should have.

• 21 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 2:34 pm

  I have my temple in my home. I have my beads and books. I realize I don’t want to be involved in so much anger that has no end and no resolution. I don’t feel like donating to your ongoing lawsuit against ISKCON. Works sucks – maybe you might all just have to go out and get jobs and support yourselves.

• 22 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 2:51 pm

  Boy-R-D, when you say, “I don’t feel like donating to your ongoing lawsuit against ISKCON. Works sucks – maybe you might all just have to go out and get jobs and support yourselves,” are you addressing the gurukulis?

• 23 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 3:24 pm

  OK, call me slow, but I get it now. Because I included a link to accounts written by gurukulis entitled, ““Our Accounts of Child Abuse in the Hare Krsnas,” you assumed I am a gurukuli and thus said that “you’re not donating to our lawsuit” and that “we might all just have to go out and get jobs and support ourselves.”

  Wow.

  Well, Boy-R-D, I’m not a gurukuli. I’m a parent who didn’t send my children away.

  Your comment is sickening.

• 24 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 3:31 pm

  I am not going to contribute to your endless hate, and why should I, what is in it for me?

  You expect ISKCON leaders to respond to you and listen to you, but what are you going to contribute in return? Are you just a complainer and a bitter, miserable person?

  Why should they listen to you and what is in it for them – I mean as individual persons? They work hard all day trying to run and organization, and for pretty low pay, compared to say the CEO of Exxon who makes $400,000,000 a year for running his company. What is in it for them to listen to your endless hate?

  I am a fucked up person. I am the first to admit it. I can’t do anything to help any body else. I am completely incapable of doing anything beneficial for anybody, except maybe the birds, squirels, and rabbits that I feed everyday – and my cats. Otherwise, I accept, I am useless, and that is why I am bowing out here.

  I was just looking for a place to laugh and have some light fun, but all that is here is hate, rage and anger.

• 25 Kenny // Aug 7, 2008 at 3:54 pm

  I’d tend to think that much of today’s problems exist because they *are* getting paid. They see it as a job, not as service to Krishna.

  If they saw protecting the devotees as a service, you wouldn’t need to ask “what’s in it for them,” they would simply do it without thought of personal gain or reward. That’s the nature of service.

  It seems that we have two main things going on in Krishna consciousness today. One set of devotees is angry. Another set is complacent. We need a lot less of both to make real progress as a community.

  -

  I’ve been doing a lot of thinking in the past few days about what AR has said. I still can’t fully blame Srila Prabhupada, it is his disciples’ greed and immaturity that create and carry on the problems we are facing. Could he have prevented it? Probably not, it’s human nature. Could he have addressed these situations so we would better know how to deal with them? Probably. Even in light of that, could we better deal with them than we are? Absolutely.

  It’s very difficult to admit that Srila Prabhupada made mistakes. Especially when he was surrounded by so many people whose only interest was “what’s in it for them.”

  He was mistaken on a few things, like the brain size thing, but these are material things, often said a handful of times. The essence of his teachings, “chant hare krishna” and “some how or another, remember Krishna,” remain untainted by whatever material mistakes he made and the myriad ways his greedy disciples used them to their own advantage.

  For now, that’s the best I can do.

• 26 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 4:13 pm

  I am just saying ask yourself – what is in it for me? Why should I have to deal with so much anger and hate? What do I get? I have to deal with anger and hate all day long in working in the real world. When I come to the temple or associate with devotees, I come for solutions to life’s problems, not just more problems that are unsolvable and full of misery.

  I was there in the 1970’s. I didn’t see any kids molested. How could Srila Prabhupada have known it was going on, unless Lord Krishna told him. He asked people to follow principles, just like parents who ask their children to follow rules, but if people and your kids disobey you, are you still as a parent still responsible? Should you as a parent be punished if you teach your children what to do, and they do something else? That is the question really. Is Srila Prabhupada responsible for all the people who made the decision not to follow his instructions and not to follow God’s laws and rules, and did something else?

• 27 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 4:23 pm

  The topic of child abuse came up in this “Memories” post because, sadly, many people’s memories are not so positive.

  When you yourself expressed extreme anger and bitterness over your own ISKCON experience, bitterness that you have not been able to overcome in over 30 years, several people here (including myself) responded to you with words of kindness and compassion.

  Yet instead of being able to offer any kind of compassion to the gurukulis – when, after all, their experiences of being abused and molested were far worse than yours of merely having to sleep on hard floors and go out on sankirtana, and you can’t even get over that – all you had to offer them were words of scorn and insult.

  So for you to accuse others of expressing “hate, rage and anger” is really surprising.

  But good luck to you and have a nice life, Boy-R-D.

• 28 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 4:37 pm

  I don’t remember you ever being nice to me at any time.

  All I see is Gurukuli-type people who sued ISKCON and got millions in return, but who are still angry and what more, and more until the whole place is burned to the ground. That’s why I am asking what is in it for ISKCON leaders to listen to you and care? Why should they?

  What honestly do you have Appreciative Reader that can make me feel any better in life? I get more kindness from my Christian Karmi neighbors than I do from the devotees? What gives?

  Good luck trying to find anybody, anywhere that is going to work for free. If you actually want any of the temples to stay open, you might have to pay at least some of the people a descent wage that they can live on. You may have to pay them enough so they won’t steal from the collections.

  It will be very hard to find people like me, who stayed celibate for 6 years, worked for free 7 days a week, 365 days a year, never got any time off, not 5 minutes off for any fun. I especially would never do it again to serve so many unhappy, ungrateful people.

• 29 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 4:45 pm

  Two days ago in Comment #12 to “It’s Easy To Distribute Books When You Look Like John Stamos,” I wrote to you:

  “Dear Boy-R-D…..I am sad that you are so bitter and feel your ISKCON experience to be an unhealed wound. You are very brave to be so honest. Life in the temple was extremely traumatic for many people, and sometimes recovery is more difficult for some than for others. This is a very complex subject. Have you thought about counseling? Also, there is a website for devotees who have left ISKCON. Some people on there have left Gaudiya Vaishnavism completely, but I think many are devotees who’ve just had it with ISKCON. It may be therapeutic for you to share your experiences honestly with lots of people who’ve been through the same things. Good luck!”

  http://www.gaudiya-repercussions.com/

• 30 Kenny // Aug 7, 2008 at 4:46 pm

  “If you actually want any of the temples to stay open, you might have to pay at least some of the people a descent wage that they can live on.”

  You know, you might be right. That might be true. But if it is, then the temples aren’t actually temples. They’re just office buildings full of disgruntled workers.

  Prabhupada clearly stated that nobody should be paid for service, that nobody (even people working at the BBT) should receive a salary.

  What I see at temples today isn’t Krishna consciousness, it’s Hinduism. ISKCON “fund raisers” fleece the Hindus because the Hindus believe that by giving money to a temple, they’ll receive a better birth in their next life. The fund raisers receive a salary for doing this.

  Devotees aren’t being paid to make better devotees, they’re being paid to make better Hindus.

  The whole thing is messed up and vile. If all we have are Hindu temples stocked full of devotees on a payroll, then count me out.

• 31 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 4:51 pm

  Kenny, check out Chapter 8, “Hindus and Hinduization” in the book “Hare Krishna Transformed” by E. Burke Rochford Jr. (New York University Press, 2007) for a complete historical perspective and sociological analysis of the Hinduization of ISKCON.

• 32 Kenny // Aug 7, 2008 at 4:54 pm

  I’ve been meaning to read that. It’s a bit pricey, but hopefully worth it.

  He’s currently writing a book about New Vrndavana. I hope he finishes it and releases it.

• 33 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 4:59 pm

  I got mine used from Amazon for $12 or $15.

• 34 Kenny // Aug 7, 2008 at 5:07 pm

  Yep, I just checked it. $13something. I’ll pick it up tonight.

  Thanks!

• 35 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 5:23 pm

  Thank you for being friendly and gracious after our, um, difference of opinion over on the “Brahmacarini” post : )

• 36 Kenny // Aug 7, 2008 at 5:36 pm

  Hey! No problem. After all is said and done, we’re all devotees, we’re all chuggin away towards the same goal. We’ll have different opinions along the way, but our beliefs are the same. No reason to be unfriendly or anything but cool.

• 37 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 6:00 pm

  See I don’t see that. I see some really nice Indian Vaishnavas who really like Krishna Consciousness and who can’t figure out why we are so messed up and unhappy.

  It is ok if you don’t ever want to go to the temple again. Don’t expect anybody there to listen to you, or care.

  Maybe every body just working for free didn’t work, and other solutions have to be sought to keep the temples open. Some people really like the temples. You don’t, so it is ok, so you don’t go there.

  I am sorry that I didn’t see what Appreciative Reader wrote to me. I only saw the heated argument between Nandini and Appreciative Reader and assumed everybody here who were supposed to be having fun and laughing about light subjects were instead fighting and filled with hate and rage.

  You don’t know me and you don’t know what I have been through. I have been in a major traffic accident out on book distribution. I was thrown out of the vehicle while it was smashed and flying off the freeway. I have had to suffer the pains from that experience for decades. I paid out of my own pocket for the years of rehibilitation and never thought of the novel idea of suing.

• 38 Rati // Aug 7, 2008 at 6:04 pm

  Boy-R-D dasa (and anyone else who may be interested)

  I comment #28 you say:

  All I see is Gurukuli-type people who sued ISKCON and got millions in return, but who are still angry and what more, and more until the whole place is burned to the ground. That’s why I am asking what is in it for ISKCON leaders to listen to you and care? Why should they?

  I am a gurukuli, and I have many gurukuli friends. I don’t know who these people are who “got millions” but it’s not gurukulis.
  And of course gurukulis are still angry. At least my generation have never actually been listened to. And they don’t care. For example, I asked a devotee giving a seminar here in NV to please refrain from quoting a known abuser of NV gurukulis. She refused, and started “preaching” to me. (She happens to like this particular abuser.)
  And look at the ridiculous situation with Gauri. The cpo dragged their feet for what, 13 years. All the while Gauri saying these were “baseless accusations.” And what are his reprecussions, for either?

• 39 Kenny // Aug 7, 2008 at 6:08 pm

  Boy RD,
  There are many wonderful Indian devotees. But those aren’t who I’m talking about.

  The service for free idea works. It’s how service to Krishna is supposed to be: selfless.

  If it’s not selfless, it’s not service. And if it’s not service, it’s just work.

  And work sucks.

• 40 Appreciative Reader // Aug 7, 2008 at 7:08 pm

  Boy-R-D, what are you talking about? Nandini and I have not had any “heated arguments.”

• 41 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 7:31 pm

  See I talk to the actual Indians who go to the temple and although I assumed like you that they might be suckered and feel ripped off, they don’t see it like that.

  I often assume ISKCON is just a Hindu organization, because it is almost 70-80% Indians now, but if you actually go there and talk with people and make friends you might find that they really like ISKCON, they really like the temple, and they appreciate the efforts of the devotees.

  They can’t understand why more regular (non-Indians) don’t come, and they wonder what is wrong.

  That’s what I have found.

  I work really hard in a job. I have been working at the same job for 32 years. I haven’t had a vacation or any time off in more than 6 years. The pay is low and it’s really hard work, but I have to do it to survive.

  I appreciate my time that I take to be Krishna Conscious. I really appreciate my japa time in the morning and night, and the little bit of time I get to read Bhagavad-gita.

  I don’t want Krishna Consciousness to fail, although I often can’t directly be with devotees because the past sometimes really sucked.

• 42 Kenny // Aug 7, 2008 at 7:34 pm

  Of course they like it, they’re basically running it now.

  And no, they don’t feel like they’re being ripped off, they believe that they are donating some money to the demigod, krishna (as opposed to Bhagavan) and that will give them a pious birth in their next life.

  Sort of not what Prabhupada wanted.

• 43 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 7:38 pm

  I think there are some really brainwashed people in ISKCON with closed minds. I am sorry you didn’t feel you were listened to. It is hard for people to listen to perpetually angry feelings. Especially if there is no end to someone’s anger.

  It is especially hard if you don’t contribute anything, and just take.

  What I mean by this is say you go to the temple, you eat prasadam, but say you don’t give any donation to help cover the cost, and you just complain and stay angry. Can you resonably expect devotees will be interested in listening to you?

  What if they did listen and they tried to counsel you and help you mentally, but you were dissatisfied with the outcome of your “temple therapy” so you decided to sue. Maybe that’s why they are hesitant to take the chance, and aren’t anxious to go out of their way to listen – they are afraid you might sue.

• 44 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 7:42 pm

  The Indians I know don’t think they are worshiping a demigod. They are real live Vaishnavas. They chant 16 rounds a day and follow the 4 regulative principles. They are taking initiation and they are happy in their spiritual lives. I am not saying this because I am some brainwashed ISKCON devotee. On the contrary I wanted ISKCON to fail, because I was so angry from the past, but I found out that I was wrong, and had to change my opinion.

• 45 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 9:11 pm

  The Indians at my local temple inspire me to be a devotee. I honestly feel very embarrassed whenever I see them, and they motivate me to try harder in spiritual life.

  When I left ISKCON formally in 1986, I didn’t chant at all for six months, I was so pissed off.

  I was working at a outdoor sales job, selling office equipment door-to-door. It was really hard work, and I failed most of the time. I was selling Japanese office equipment to Chinese people, in a Chinese neighborhood.

  I never told anyone in the office that I was a devotee. I kept it real quiet. They knew I was a vegetarian. They were all born-agin Christians. They hated me, because I wasn’t a Christian too and were determined to get rid of me by any means. They called me “the preacher” because I had so much determination to sell. I personally called on 10,000 businesses in a six month period.

  Then they finally figured out what to do, they gave me a quota so high it would be impossible to make it Now they had a way to finally kick me out for good.

  I sold equipment all month long, but two days before the end of the month, I was still down $15,000 in equipment. I went into the office and cleaned out my desk, because I was going to be fired in 2 days.

  I went to a park nearby and said a prayer to Lord Krishna. I said look I am your devotee, so if you want me to fail, or you want me to succeed it is in your hands. Whatever your choice, I will always remain a devotee.

  In the next two days I blew through their quota by several thousand dollars. I didn’t really sell anything. The orders came in from all over the place, and all I did was deliver equipment to people I had contacted in months before. It really pissed the bosses off. They called me into their office and admitted how much they hated me. They told me all about their plan to fire me. But they had to admit that some unknown force was protecting me.

  That did it, from then on I started chanting again, and I didn’t stop. I have to, what can I say, I was protected.

• 46 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 9:25 pm

  What I really like about this site is how I can change my name. I mean when I have completely burned every possible bridge here and have no chance in hell of being anyone’s friend, then if all else fails I can change my name and start agin.

  Of course there is the prestige of having 30 posts and only being #5 from the top of the list.

  The dilema?

• 47 Kenny // Aug 7, 2008 at 9:28 pm

  Boy – I wouldn’t worry about having to change your name. Everyone who posts here seems to be pretty open-minded. Sure, opinionated, but open-minded. I wouldn’t worry about it.

• 48 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 7, 2008 at 9:40 pm

  If I have hurt anyone’s feelings, insulted anyone by the things I said, I am really sorry. My only excuse is — I’m nuts.

• 49 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 10, 2008 at 2:15 pm

  I only went on one morning walk with Srila Prabhupada. It was at Venice Beach in 1975. As time passed, during Srila Prabhupada’s stay with us, it became increasingly difficult for any but the most elite and powerful devotees to gain his personal association.

  I was walking along with all the devotees, with Srila Prabhupada at the front. If anyone has ever seen the movie “Gandhi”, that is how Srila Prabhupada walked, at a brisk pace, way ahead of all his youthful disciples.

  Somehow I found myself up near the front of the pack. Suddenly, and without warning, Srila Prabhupada stopped, and put out his cane to turn and go back.

  I went flying over the cane, and landed face down into the sand. As I turned over I noticed everyone looking down at me quizickly. I felt like a total fool. I never went back again.

• 50 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 10, 2008 at 2:17 pm

  quizzically

• 51 Appreciative Reader // Aug 10, 2008 at 2:33 pm

  Kenny, in Comment #25 you said, “I’ve been doing a lot of thinking in the past few days about what AR has said. I still can’t fully blame Srila Prabhupada, it is his disciples’ greed and immaturity that create and carry on the problems we are facing. Could he have prevented it? Probably not, it’s human nature. Could he have addressed these situations so we would better know how to deal with them? Probably.”

  Certainly Prabhupada’s “disciples’ greed and immaturity” “carried on” and exacerbated the problem, but they did not CREATE it, as you say here. Prabhupada himself created the problem, with his horrific gurukula directive, in which he used his autocratic position to force his obedient disciples to send their children away to Dallas (please see victims’ accounts in Hare Krishna Transformed, in The Hare Krishna Movement: The Post-Charismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant and on the VOICE website
  http://web.archive.org/web/19981205005548/http:/ccrgroup.com/voice/ ), and with his sexist and misogynistic statements about how women should be beaten like dogs, how they enjoy being raped and how they are less intelligent and should never be given independence. Prabhupada himself created the problem, and his opportunistic disciples just took the ball and ran with it.

  And you ask, “Could he have prevented it?” but then answer your own question, “Probably not.” Kenny, of COURSE he could have prevented it…..by teaching the transcendental Vaishnava philosophy from the correct perspective of panditah sama-darsinah, instead of saying so many abusive things about women and black people, and instead of ordering that tiny, helpless children be sent thousands of miles away from their families.

  Yes, Kenny, in claiming to be “as good as God,” Prabhupada had an obligation to “do the right thing,” and he most certainly could have prevented the egregious abuse of women and children that took place and continues to take place in his organization as a result of his horrificly abusive directives and statements.

• 52 Appreciative Reader // Aug 10, 2008 at 2:39 pm

  “Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never to be given freedom. Just like in America. The Blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards.
  What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food,
  sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.”
  (Room Conversation, Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced, Mayapura, February 14, 1977)

• 53 Appreciative Reader // Aug 10, 2008 at 2:45 pm

  The editor needs an editor (or at least a proofreader)…..horrifically.

• 54 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 10, 2008 at 3:34 pm

  Let me get this straight, when the karmis send their kids away to private schools, sometimes overseas, and thousands of miles from home that is good and moral. But when Prabhupada did it that is evil – right?

  It reminds me of my parents. They saw Srila Prabhupada speak at New Vrndavan in 1972. My father spent his entire life enfuriated at Srila Prabhupada, because Srila Prabhupada asked the parents to remove their small children who were crying and disturbing his lecture. I got to hear about it for 30 years.

  A couple of years ago I went to see a movie with my parents. There was a “crying room” in the theater. I asked my parents what its purpose was, and they explained it to me like I was a stupid person.

  Then I reminded them of why they hated Srila Prabhupada so much. I asked them, why do they have a “crying room” in the theater. That’s so wrong. The children should be allowed to just cry and cry, and disturb everyone’s viewing of the movie, just like you think that Srila Prabhupada should have just let the children cry and cry in his class.

  Makes perfect sense doesn’t it?

• 55 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 10, 2008 at 3:44 pm

  This is the problem with this site. It is supposed to be ficticious stories that are created so that everyone can laugh at themselves and have fun. But the real purpose is to mock and humiliate the devotees, and specifically the spiritual master of the Krishna Consciousness Movement, Srila Prabhupada. The goal is to insult and tear them down in all their efforts with as much HATE as possible.

• 56 Appreciative Reader // Aug 10, 2008 at 4:06 pm

  “Let me get this straight, when the karmis send their kids away to private schools, sometimes overseas, and thousands of miles from home that is good and moral. But when Prabhupada did it that is evil – right?”

  No. It’s bad and immoral when anybody does it. Including Prabhupada. I’ve recently become friends with an extremely prominent, high-profile and wealthy individual in the community where I live, who endlessly laments the fact that his parents sent him away to boarding school. So it’s not OK no matter who does it. And, being “as good as God,” Prabhupada should have known better.

• 57 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 10, 2008 at 11:07 pm

  But have you taken the time to interview all the people of the earth to find out if everyone thinks like you do, and are all in agreement with your opinion. I haven’t heard in the news that all the private schools of earth are now closing down, or that any of them are.

  Even if Srila Prabhupada did 10,000 things right, you would cast all of it aside and only continously harp on small handfull of things you could find that he did wrong, in your eyes, because you HATE him from the core of your heart.

  Take as an example, 30 years ago Srila Prabhupada disagreed with Scientific teaching of the day that the moon is nothing but a lifeless object covered in rocks. Srila Prabhupada stated that instead the moon was covered, as an example, by a thin layer of ice. Everybody laughed at Srila Prabhupada for such a crazy idea. He was only repeating what the Vedas say afterall. He always stated that he was speaking what he had learned from the Vedas, on Vedic authority.

  Now, as of 2008, scientists are teaching that the moon is covered by a thin layer of ice. Now it’s the truth.

  When Srila Prabhupada stated it, it was just bullshit for people like you. But now that the scientists are stating it, it is the truth.

  Again it is because, and only because you HATE Srila Prabhupada, and for that reason you can not find any agreement with anything that Srila Prabhupada taught. In your eyes he should not have come here. No one benefited from anything he did.

  The earth would have been a much better place if he had not come, and all people everywhere would be much happier in your eyes.

• 58 Kenny // Aug 10, 2008 at 11:23 pm

  Boy, about comment #55… I’m pretty sure that the purpose of this site isn’t “to mock and humiliate the devotees, and specifically the spiritual master of the Krishna Consciousness Movement, Srila Prabhupada.”

  Just a hunch, but I think not.

• 59 Rati // Aug 11, 2008 at 11:37 am

  I agree with Kenny on #58. In fact I’m sure. We’ve had many in depth discussions with Eric, who runs the site, about many things, including the hing, it’s articles etc.
  I doubt anyone could find anything in the articles to “to mock and humiliate the devotees, and specifically the spiritual master of the Krishna Consciousness Movement, Srila Prabhupada.”

• 60 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 11, 2008 at 1:08 pm

  I wish I wasn’t so emotional, and upset and angry in my own life, so that I when Srila Prabhupada is being critisized, I could respond logically, and without anger. I wish I could debate, point by point opposing viewpoints, so that each of us could come to the logical truth.

  It would be much easier for me to dismiss everything wholesale from my Krishna Conscious experience and walk away, if only I could do that, but I can’t. My goals in life are peace of mind, happiness, peace, and well being.

  I want the process of Bhakti Yoga and Krishna Consciousness to work for me. It has worked for me in the past, and made me feel better. That is why I am trying to revive my Krishna Conscious experience today. I feel incapable of doing anything to help everyone else though, so I am really just working on myself these days.

  At the same time, I will not let ISKCON use or exploit me, as some people did in the past. I also will not turn a blind eye to the evils of ISKCON’s past actions and mistaken ideas and philosophies.

  Sometimes I feel it is due to my ignorance though that I don’t understand what Srila Prabhupada was teaching us. I try to investigate his instructions like a scientist to see if it is really the truth, or a bluff.

  I am hesitant to read books about ISKCON written by outsiders who are not saintly, self-realized souls themselves. These persons may themselves be filled with as much hypocracy and falsehood, as the very movement they are attempting to critique.

• 61 Appreciative Reader // Aug 11, 2008 at 2:17 pm

  Boy-R-D, you wrote, “I wish I wasn’t so emotional, and upset and angry in my own life, so that I when Srila Prabhupada is being critisized, I could respond logically, and without anger.”

  Please know that my intent is not to “criticize” Prabhupada. Rather, my intent is to take an honest, objective look at the sordid issues of child abuse and misogyny in ISKCON’s dark and troubled history, and to acknowledge the many ways in which Prabhupada himself laid the foundation for these things. Unless and until we all come to terms with that reality, however painful it may be for us to do so, we will never be able to move forward in a healthy, functional way.

• 62 Rati // Aug 11, 2008 at 7:18 pm

  Boy R-D dasa- you know, a lot of people feel the same way. We like Krishna consciousness, but not the crap that some people try to justify.

  How often is scripture used to push forgiveness. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it’s bad to forgive or anything like that. But I’ve had so many quotes thrown at me about how I should forgive abusers. (And more specifically just act like they’ve never done anything wrong.)

  In the 11th chapter of BG, Arjuna sees in Krsna’s Universal Form, many warriors being devoured and crushed between His teeth. Among these warriors is Bhismadeva. Now, to me this is pretty shocking, He’s such a great devotee and one of the 12 mahajanas.
  It’s been a while since I read this, so I’m remembering the best I can.
  It is explained that for the offense of remaining silent when Draupadi was insulted, He will be killed. Not that he ordered or engaged in the insult. But he did nothing to stop it. Therefore he had to be killed. I don’t recall Krsna telling Draupadi to “just forgive” or anything like that.
  Anyway, I just thought that was interesting and wanted to share.
  Hari bol!

• 63 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 11, 2008 at 8:54 pm

  I am an older man now – 56. Many of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples like me are dying and passing away now. For younger people there is hope. Soon all of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples will be dead and gone. You have an opportunity to create Krishna Conciousness in the most positive form you like, getting rid of and changing everything that went wrong before. If you don’t like what ISKCON represents, you can do away with it altogether, and start over with something you feel would be better for the devotees, and the rest of the world as well.

  I don’t understand everything Srila Prabhupada taught. I can’t follow everything either. There are so many things I can’t do, and am unwilling to do.

  I am sorry for all the ways we, as older devotees, failed you and how we let everyone down. The call of Srila Prabhupada was for all of us to become “Christlike”. It is a great idea on paper, but who can give up every form of pleasure, in return for the hope that someday the might make some spiritual advancement, and someday, with no promises or guarantees, feel some spiritual joy and happiness.

  We are really all like children. We have heard the rules, but we want to see what we can still hold on to and not let go.

  I try to appreciate what Srila Prabhupada gave me and what I have received through accepting and following Krishna Consciousness. One thing I appreciate that Srila Prabhupada taught was how every living entity has a soul, is conscious and can feel pain. He taught us to feel great compasion for all living entities. He taught us to offer respect even to the bugs, and to be compassionate and kind to everything. That was a really great teaching for me.

  I can understand why food needs to be offered. It is difficult for me to eat fruit, without thinking how it is a baby just trying to survive in the world. He totally changed my viewpoint in how I live in the world.

• 64 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 11, 2008 at 9:02 pm

  I was at the Chicago Temple in 1975. Srila Prabhupada was initiating 108 disciples from Tamal Krishna Swami’s Radha Damodhar Party. The temple room was packed with devotees chanting and dancing in front of Srila Prabhupada. I was way up in the balcony looking down on the scene.

  In my mind I observed that Srila Prabhupada appeared to be playing his gong off-key and out of sinc with the kirtan, as he sat on his Vyasasana. I thought to myself “he isn’t playing right”. I don’t really know if he was or not, I was pretty far away from what was happening, and my eyesight isn’t that great. I just thought that way.

  Suddenly he stopped playing his gong, looked up at me in the balcony, and our eyes met. He put his gong down and continued chanting in the kirtan. After some time he again picked up his gong and continued to play and chant with the devotees.

• 65 Devak // Aug 11, 2008 at 11:42 pm

  Before Srila Prabhupada came to America he was just an ordinary holy man. There were and are thousands like that in India.

  It is a good thing that he came to America. The unfortunate part is that he brought with him a lot of cultural baggage that did not and does not fit well in the West. The idea that he offered an alternative to drugs is a great and lasting credit to him.

  He also was a bit ego driven as he loved to sit in the glare of the spotlight. He was very impressed by the manner in which Gandhi was admired and he wanted that for himself. He even stated this publicly on a morning walk by the river in India.

  A truely great man does not need the cheers of the crowd. His actions speak for themselves.

  A more correct assessment needs to be made.

  Devak

• 66 Nandini // Aug 12, 2008 at 10:39 am

  Devak wrote:

  “The unfortunate part is that he brought with him a lot of cultural baggage that did not and does not fit well in the West. ”

  I agree with you Devak that this is unfortunate.

  But I have always added (to friends, family and whomever wants to hear it) that I think this mentality is unfortunate in the West as well as in India were it was brought from. I mean, there really isn’t a place in the entire world where such mentality “fits well”. Misogyny, casteism, racism, these things better wiped off the face of the universe. They are perpetual anarthas bouncing around in people’s hearts, and for Prabhupada to advocate this mentality was pretty contradictory of him: He taught us about a sublime state of being, of compassion to one another and celebration of ideal love. But at the same time he got himself mixed up with very rustic social prejudices. So for us, the solution seems to simply be that we may accept his good teachings and reject the negative ones. In exposing where he made mistakes while still accepting where he was in line with the ideal, we can still honor the main thrust of his mission, becoming thus really loyal to him as opposed to the impasse of trying to justify the unjustifiable.

• 67 Kenny // Aug 12, 2008 at 10:44 am

  I also think that, at least partially, devotees take every word that Prabhupada as gospel for everybody. Prabhupada’s private letters and conversations that were very time/place/circumstance are often applied in a blanket fashion.

  A big example is how his closer female disciples always felt very loved and cared for by him. But his brahmacaris felt that he was very anti-woman.

• 68 Nandini // Aug 12, 2008 at 12:11 pm

  Kenny wrote:
  “devotees take every word that Prabhupada (said) as gospel for everybody. Prabhupada’s private letters and conversations that were very time/place/circumstance (oriented), are often applied in a blanket fashion.”

  I think that even as gospel according to time, place and circumstances, certain “gospels” are just untruth, period. I think that even if Prabhupada were present before us right now and repeated these things, affirming again that they do indeed apply under certain circumstances, then the right thing for any of us to do would be to simply inform him respectfully that such teaching really isn’t correct. And will never be. That is, the truth stands on its own: Abuse of other jivas based on bodily designation is never, under any circumstances, conducive for spiritual upliftment, never justified. And if a guru tries to change this fact, the onus should be on him. But this does not mean that Prabhupada was wrong in every one of his insights. He was overall a lofty spiritual teacher.

  Misogyny seems to be at the core of human misidentity throughout history (for some reason). Men seem to be afraid of women sexuality while women seem to fear men’s brute force. In this respect, Prabhupada seemed to be affected by these traits and took them to be spiritual insights. He made a mistake, clearly.

• 69 Boy-R-D dasa (not the chef) // Aug 13, 2008 at 11:15 pm

  We will have to see in the course of time if Srila Prabhupada made mistakes or not. Times change and opinions change in human society. As an example practically no one was a Vegan 30 years ago. Now it is all the rage. In a few year Vegan might be out and something else might be in.

  It is a fact that many women, by nature, are attracted to men who are strong and powerful. Often it has been found that women may intellectually state that they are attracted to men who are open with their feelings. But their inner heart speaks otherwise. Many women are attracted to powerful men, who behave like men, and who can protect them, because often they are hasselled.

  It is just an observation. Otherwise, why do some women go after bad boys?

  Perhaps the problem is the lack of strong men in today’s society, who are also at the same time pure Vaishnavas. Perhaps if there were more devotees who were perceived by society as actually spiritually advanced and saintly, ISKCON, and the original efforts of Srila Prabhupada would be more appreciated. Instead right now what is mostly seen seems to be promises for something in the future.

  Srila Prabhupada stated that we should not accept Post-dated Checks. He specifically stated this in relationship to the promises of the scientists, that in the future they could create life. But we can also use the same analogy in relationship to ISKCON devotees, and especially leadership, when they promise that in the future they will become spiritually advanced, but now just give them money.

  The problem is many devotees use Bhakti-yoga ISKCON-style as a way to get over in life. As a way to not have to work, and be maintained by everyone else who has to work to make it,while at the same time pretending to be devotees, or worse sanyasis.

  This is the greatest hypocracy. The problem with Bhakti-yoga is it is so easy to cheat. Anyone can say they are chanting 16 rounds or following the 4 regulative principles, as an example, but how would anyone really know for sure? It is totally an honor system.

• 70 thehing // Aug 13, 2008 at 11:18 pm

  This can be continued in the forums…
  Here!

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